4. Pass Labor Regulations

I'm well aware . We need something that works an is also acceptable. Lets find some common ground.

Perhaps common ground could be individually speaking to everyone in the County and trying our best to have them hire at max stats, while making the minimum wage for stat jobs at 18 pounds. Just a thought.

I'm good with that, don't expect results, but eh

If asking doesn't work then enforcement might be called for...

Ceana wrote:

Well I have given my reasons here. If I end up on council I will be dead against this. And Lance knows I will be vocal. I don't live in France, I live in Scotland.

I see the train of thought here and I honestly this this will be the biggest hurdle to overcome when we take this to the public. Market Regulation = Dictatorship = Dictatorships are Evil. That's not how it is though. These initiatives benefit the county as a whole, not just CC. Wages increase, we have more reasonably priced goods for export, people's goods sell quickly, trade between towns increases . . . and so on. Do not take this as me being snarky, but can you give me one solid argument, besides just hindering people's "independence", as to why these labor initiatives won't work or shouldn't be implemented?

If it comes down to it and people in Galloway are more worried about doing whatever they want, whenever they want, instead of debt reduction, increased wages, markets that move, reasonably priced goods, and helping the county out . . . then this is probably a lost cause. If that is the case, there is no point in focusing on the debt whatsoever. If we're not serious about getting out of debt, might as well just focus on making people happy through RPing more and making the laws more fair and just go forget about the entire economy. Hell, it'd make my job as TM a lot easier as I won't have to even worry about fighting the debt . We will never do it without the help of the citizens. I can guarantee the following . . .

1. Wages will increase across the board
2. People's goods will move quickly on the market
3. Mine attendance will increase
4. Goods will be reasonable prices on the market
5. An active export market
6. County Cash Debt reduction

In exchange I am asking for . . .

1. People to give up cow fields
2. People to list their fields for max stats
3. Towns try to organize production
4. People list their goods in between reasonable parameters (4.75-5.50 for bread for example)

Given the promises, I really do not think that's a lot to ask. Now if I ask people to do all then and then I don't follow through, then yes, that's unreasonable. But you know me and I am active and honestly do care about this county. CC will uphold its end of the bargain, we just need the people's help to accomplish that.

I don't mind being taken a peck at. You know I can kick your ass.


It may work, that is very true. But I also function with moral ethics. I also get leery when the words 'Promise' and 'Guarantee' get tossed around.

You want to know why this will not work? Because people were born into something different. The WHOLE of Scotland/England/Ireland are not set up this way. If France is? More power to them. It would be something different if counsel was in place quarterly rather than rushing in all the time to fix what the previous council had screwed with (In their opinion) all the time.

Personally.. I would probably leave Galloway if this was put into place. Sorry. I don't feel that my elected officials have the right to tell me who, where and what color it is in order for the bear to take a collective thought and squat over a fallen tree. On Everything. Why? Because I can move a county over and do what I want. And please don't say that people are not willing to help out, do for the county.. blah blah blah.. because that really ticks me off to be used to get people motivated. As it is a very broad and low statement that is simply no true. Many people do and give to the county in their own ways and to say that is just not right.

I -agree- that a lesser form should be in place. Minimum slavery wages being £15, Caps for max/mins on things like Bread and Corn.. and even to go so far as applying it to Wheat and Corn for fodder purposes. Something Directly the county is using.

You want to try this? Then test it out on those things.. Get your numbers and when the time comes lay the formula out there for people to look at. I am not willing to watch these kind of laws go into place and it not work out. Because then all the hard work will be for naught and then you have the next term politicians that will remove it anyhow.

All I am saying is that.. Ok Fine.. if you want to go this route.. you cannot, I don't care how Radical your movement is, you can not throw all this in place all of a sudden and expect people to follow like sheep. I wouldn't and wont. You want to keep actives? This isn't the way it will get done. Forcing people will backfire quicker than easing people into it.. Look at how well the Mines deal went? You cut the mine workers in half, people had a fit. Yet, now I see that it is the right thing to do. Look at people wanting to pay taxes.

We have means of changing things already without taking away common rights. It is about time that we start using them. Just because people don't like taxes, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Everyone states that it will go into the void, that is the debt.. Well.. Dur. That is where it is Supposed to go. I don't get why people keep looking for ways that the money doesn't go directly -to- the black hole of the debt. If it doesn't start sometime, the debt will never get dealt with.

It frustrates me that I know places in England and Ireland were severely in more debt than we are, yet they used means of taxation to get out of the hole and here we are.. because we refuse to tax like we should be. We refuse to cut back where we need to. And yeah, of course our debt is continuing to rise. Because we are not counter balancing our spending.

lol Mkay.. think I rambled enough.

(OOC: In the end it is a game, and I am here to have fun. I am not here to bicker, bitch and be miserable. I think more RP's are VERY needed, and I think a few here will agree with that. The muddy crud gets old quick after one has been here for going on 2+ years. So yeah, I want my fuzzy slippers and cuddly bunny some days too. )

On reading the council lists platform on economics I was reminded of the mentor letters and mayors messages telling new players that they can work field jobs when they come up. We need to remind them that this goes against the economic system we're trying to implement and have them change their messages.

Quote :

We have means of changing things already without taking away common rights. It is about time that we start using them. Just because people don't like taxes, doesn't mean it shouldn't be used. Everyone states that it will go into the void, that is the debt.. Well.. Dur. That is where it is Supposed to go. I don't get why people keep looking for ways that the money doesn't go directly -to- the black hole of the debt. If it doesn't start sometime, the debt will never get dealt with.

Because if it goes into that black hole then we can't use it to trade to further decrease the debt

Quote :

All I am saying is that.. Ok Fine.. if you want to go this route.. you cannot, I don't care how Radical your movement is, you can not throw all this in place all of a sudden and expect people to follow like sheep. I wouldn't and wont. You want to keep actives? This isn't the way it will get done. Forcing people will backfire quicker than easing people into it.. Look at how well the Mines deal went? You cut the mine workers in half, people had a fit. Yet, now I see that it is the right thing to do. Look at people wanting to pay taxes.

I don't believe this is meant to be thrown on anyone all of the sudden, they will take multiple months and more than likely multiple council terms, it is meant to be a gradual change that allows the people of Scotland to become used to the system. As Lance has said, if they want this type of system they will vote on our list...if they don't, they won't and will raise other lists...

Alright, I tried to tone it down and just preach the benefits of this program in the platform I posted. If we're doing away with cows we need to provide some economic assistance for people to switch fields in all fairness. I'm keeping the bit about hiring for maximum stats, however, for now I have taken out the minimum wage law. We'll see how everyone takes these before even trying to do something like that.

I think Ceana stated almost exactly my sentiments on this. It still reads rather harsh to me and comes across looking like a dictatorship. It hasn't even been implemented yet and I can already feel the resentment building in me about this. Don't underestimate how valued feedom of choice if. If you aren't careful with this it will drive people out here including myself.

Is there a timeline for implementation or will it be force fed right away?

Why is it a problem to ask this Hespera, your right people want their freedom of choice but people take advantage of others if there are no rules, its been years and Galloway hasnt got any stronger with this style of economy and freedom, im not talking about taking away freedoms we should just regulate things for the better, would you rather a 17 pound wage a day and save 3 pounds on hiring, or would you like to have a 20 pounds a day wage? Asking for them all to be stat jobs well i dont see that as bad either, it gives the skilled labour higher paying jobs and makes newbies work the mines which is fair on all and helps out the county. This will be implemented slowly hopefully halfway through the term have in done, this should go in par with the price caps, so that everyone gets equal wages and people dont make too much extra by selling for x price but highering for less.

The people will know of our intentions so if they agree with us that this is the way forward then they will vote for us.

All this freedom doesn't move goods on the markets or push the county treasury closer to the black...both of which also drive people from the game...

Quote :

Is there a timeline for implementation or will it be force fed right away?

Generally speaking I know most of these ideas are planned to be worked into the county over multiple council terms if everything pans out...I think from the start we are going to place caps and floors on corn, bread, wheat, fish, and wood to get a feel of people's reactions and to show people that the markets will become more fluid and wages will be higher with more market control...if it works well we'll start putting more caps and floors into place slowly.

I believe from the start we are also going to put into affect the sliding scale that Launce created that the number of iron mine jobs put up daily is based on the number of gold mine jobs taken per day to encourage people to go to Drummore and work the mines.

In the beginning we are going to ask people to hire only max stat jobs at 18-20 pounds to force no/low stat citizens to work in the mines and increase wages and we are going to put incentives up for people to get rid of their second fields to cut back on overproduction...we are also going to look into perhaps putting into place laws to encourage such things if asking has no results.

I'm sure I'm missing a few things and am mistaken on a few things, but most of it is posted in the council platform threads I believe.

Hespera wrote:

I think Ceana stated almost exactly my sentiments on this. It still reads rather harsh to me and comes across looking like a dictatorship. It hasn't even been implemented yet and I can already feel the resentment building in me about this. Don't underestimate how valued feedom of choice if. If you aren't careful with this it will drive people out here including myself.

Is there a timeline for implementation or will it be force fed right away?

First off, for implementation we'll be doing it in this order . . .

Immediately
Getting County Traders
Getting all jobs hired for maximum stats
Reducing Taxes
Implement sliding mines scale.

Within 2-3 weeks
Price min/max
Start providing incentives for people to switch from cow fields, or just dropping fields all together
Begin lowering the prestige

Later in the term
Start building a ship, help upgrade the county ports

Don't think I missed anything there . . .

Aye, Hespera I understand your trepidation. How can we make this more acceptable though? Is there anything we can compromise on. We need this entire party on the same page. We can't have just 3 of us in public arguing for these points, while the other 9 council members are sitting in taverns trying to disassociate themselves from all of this. We cannot have this kind of disunity, I have said I am willing to scale back a little and make some compromises, you just have to let me know what you'd like to see.

Without unity on CC, nothing is going to get accomplished, look at current CC and how ineffective they are because of the divide. I want to get this all worked out now, before the term, so that once we're in office we can just set to work. We need the time to manage our offices properly and implement a lot of these programs. If we get in CC and have these same debates for 3-4 weeks, we're just going to waste precious time.

Quote :

Aye, Hespera I understand your trepidation. How can we make this more acceptable though? Is there anything we can compromise on. We need this entire party on the same page. We can't have just 3 of us in public arguing for these points, while the other 9 council members are sitting in taverns trying to disassociate themselves from all of this. We cannot have this kind of disunity, I have said I am willing to scale back a little and make some compromises, you just have to let me know what you'd like to see.

Without unity on CC, nothing is going to get accomplished, look at current CC and how ineffective they are because of the divide. I want to get this all worked out now, before the term, so that once we're in office we can just set to work. We need the time to manage our offices properly and implement a lot of these programs. If we get in CC and have these same debates for 3-4 weeks, we're just going to waste precious time.

Then a plan that people would agree with might be a better Idea. I don't agree with this stuff. And to ask for a council to NOT have oppositions to your ideas is really on the wrong side. You can not expect the rest of council to be sheep and lapdogs.

lol It is said over and over that the way this is going to go isn't taking away freedoms. I beg to differ.

It is taking away our freedoms and like I told Lance, if you don't have -all- of Scotland, not just Galloway, on this, it will be fruitless. Not that I am coming around to the idea, I am certainly not. That said, Ships that sail in the night may take away your precious population. And it is precious. I don't think Scotland likes living under England's rule, But even England's rule would be better than taking away our market rights and our rights to hire what we wish.

As I said before, I agree with at £16 minimum wage. Whether you face it or not, I would rather work for 16 for a field than to work the mines for 15.5.. Just putting it out there is all. It is what everyone is going to do, not necessarily tell you they are. And that then brings up the problem of too many fields. People have a right to what ever field they wish. Sure, you can make it more difficult by not producing cows. But that, I can see will be next on the agenda.. Making people hang up their fields and shops.

Sorry fellas, I don't like where this is headed. Do your trial run on your few items. (Corn, Bread and Wheat.. -Nothing else.-) And lets see how it works out.

I completely took out minimum wages Ceana. I am still going to ask that people hire all fields for max stats though. I'm not forcing people to give up fields, I'm providing incentives for them to switch from cows and get rid of fields. It's their choice, take 400.00 and give up their cow fields or take 100.00 to just give up a field in general. In the meantime the county will still breed cows.

Is that a fair compromise?

1. No minimum wage
2. Pay people to switch to better fields or give up fields
3. Strongly encourage people to hire for max stats

Freedom does what exactly...? Make you feel good about yourself? What you keep saying you'll agree to Ceana is what has been put in place basically since the start of Scotland...and where has that gotten us? Lots of freedom and lots of debt...Why live in Scotland if you're not willing to work to make it a better place?

Launce has quite a few great ideas...but he keeps watering them down more and more to keep "freedom" lovers happy...well it's a game...have you're freedom IRL and give this a try IG...

That's what it comes down to . . .

1. Put aside some freedom to help the county get out of debt (and I don't want to use the law to enforce this, I want people to do it willingly)

2. Decide that complete freedom is more important then the debt and forget about it.

If everyone in Galloway wants option 2, then why are we wasting our time here? I'm not pouring long hours into being TM for no reason. Being TM sucks, I hated it when I was TM before and only wanted to give it one more shot to see if some of this would work. I'm not trying to invoke pity, but if this just flat out isn't going to work, I'd rather run as Sheriff, or just return to being Mayor, where the results of long hours show. If we're just going to maintain the status quo, my hearts not in it.

Quote :

In the beginning we are going to ask people to hire only max stat jobs at 18-20 pounds to force no/low stat citizens to work in the mines and increase wages and we are going to put incentives up for people to get rid of their second fields to cut back on overproduction...we are also going to look into perhaps putting into place laws to encourage such things if asking has no results.

Pardon. I read this and still thought that the wage force was still going in place because we have not seen a final Platform come forth yet and there was nothing saying that the wages -were not- going to be done.

My apologies for that.

What was said was 'First Off' implementations.. 'Getting all jobs hired for maximum stats' because it was being talked about at the same time, I figured it went hand in hand.

I agree with hiring full stats for 17-18-19, I generally do that, as do most people. The problem lays in enforcing people to hire for 'max' stat. Exceptions being Veggie fields. Or are we expecting that do do the same?

I am not trying to be a pain in the Arse. I am saying it -how- and -what- people will do. No, I don't think wood and fish need to be included in this little experiment. With the need of wood right now it is crazy to expect people to do that with wood. Axes are in High demand right now because carts are taking up needed Iron, knives are non-existent because of the same thing.. and you expect to regulate wood right now? I really an not sure about fish, but I have never really heard about people exporting Fish. (Fish really is out of my know-how, to be honest..)

Something I was meaning to ask... How are we saving money if we are paying people 400 to change their field? Call me Daft, that is fine, but isn't the money from certain things going to go into the cash debt?

Quote :

Freedom does what exactly...? Make you feel good about yourself? What you keep saying you'll agree to Ceana is what has been put in place basically since the start of Scotland...and where has that gotten us? Lots of freedom and lots of debt...Why live in Scotland if you're not willing to work to make it a better place?

Launce has quite a few great ideas...but he keeps watering them down more and more to keep "freedom" lovers happy...well it's a game...have you're freedom IRL and give this a try IG...

You know, I don't have a go at you for your opinions, I am happy that you are fine with living with making people do what -you- want.. So take your little comments and shove them. I live in Galloway because I love it there. If you don't like my opinions, tough. I like my freedom. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. And until you USE the tools you were given to get this county out of debt, then the burden is on you. So don't you dare have a crack at me for not giving to my Country because I do give a crap about it. I -also- give a crap about the people that live within her borders. Or I wouldn't have put my life on the line so that people could go frolic in England in a ridiculous war for absolutely NOTHING. Just because you feel differently doesn't mean I am going to be a snide snarky little witch to you. So lay off!

Lance, let me know when the final Platform is up. I will not be back to these halls until then. I will say that I am 100% in on this council. I can't sit by Idly and watch this all unfold without bringing some form of sanity to the table. You want a sheep, you are not going to get one from this chicka.

Calm down.

Point of order:
Do we really need to put price restrictions on wood?

Mercury wrote:

Calm down.

Point of order:
Do we really need to put price restrictions on wood?

This is just a preview of what you can expect from other non-conformist citizens.

I would be on board with increasing the minimum wage, but not as high as 20, although it seems irrelevant now if Lance has taken it out.

I'm not on board with having to agree with everything this CC would put forth. I'm entitled to my opinion. You asked me if I would be interested in joining CC not if I would let you or anyone else pull my strings.
I don't have better solutions to offer at this time, if I think of things I will add but sometimes it is helping simply by pointing out areas where you are going to have difficulty.

Sorry if it's already been posted somewhere but do we even know how many cow fields need to be dropped or converted and if yes then the projected cost of paying these incentives? Is there a list of all cow field owners? If not Can I change both my fields to cow right before the election so I can make a profit off the conversion once this CC takes over? (I wouldn't really) but maybe others would, I'm not the only one who would think to do this. It cost 50p to reset a field, if County offers 400 to switch....

Strongly encouraging people to hire for max stats is fine, but not something you can really enforce.

I have not the time to check the statistics on cow fields in Galloway right now. I'm sure Lance will talk about that.

Please don't feel like you are being asked to deny yourself an opinion. Don't be afraid to assert yourself, especially now of all times. Speak your mind now and allow us all to be on the same level, and hopefully soon we will have a platform of beliefs and ideas we all agree with. Work out the kinks now before Council starts.

Regarding compensation for cow ranch owners switching to other fields. I don't think we would need to pay people 400 pounds to change their field. I think that was mentioned as payment for people to get rid of their field altogether, which would help stop over production.

Quote :

I completely took out minimum wages Ceana. I am still going to ask that people hire all fields for max stats though. I'm not forcing people to give up fields, I'm providing incentives for them to switch from cows and get rid of fields. It's their choice, take 400.00 and give up their cow fields or take 100.00 to just give up a field in general. In the meantime the county will still breed cows.

Is that a fair compromise?

1. No minimum wage
2. Pay people to switch to better fields or give up fields
3. Strongly encourage people to hire for max stats

Actually it was stated that they would get 400 for giving up their cow field.. not their fields altogether. I don't think we need to either, because if we say we are not breeding cows, that pretty much covers it. I DO, believe that if we are going to shaft people like that that we NEED to offer £50 for their changing fields.

Yeah that was my bad . . . I was thinking they'd have to spend 400.00 to buy a completely new field. Forgot about the 50.00 to just change it . I'm going to have some free time later tonight and I'm going to try to run out numbers for everything so we can see the cost/benefit of everything.

Dumfries - 3
Fouad
Cinnamondonut
Tannart

Drummore - 2
Scorpio
Stahlhelm

Kirkcudbright - 10
Venum
Sir_glen
Highlander...
Malthus
Thief100
Tamora
Anushka1217
Pnusous
Bigyoda
Jerdakdyl

Whithorn - 3
Zatec
Ianda
Gedilika77

Wigtown - 5
Sampson
Princesskate
Dolokaju
Seyc
Zelathi

Total Cow Fields - 23
If giving 50.00 to switch 23*50= 1,150.00

Dumfries - 14 workshops, 28 fields
14 @ 3.00 = 42.00
28 @ 2.00 = 56.00

Total Tax = 98.00

Drummore - 43 workshops, 81 fields
43 @ 3.00 = 129.00
81 @ 2.00 = 162.00

Total Tax = 291.00

Kirkcudbright - 52 Workshops, 125 fields
52 @ 3.00 = 156.00
125 @ 2.00 = 250.00

Total Tax = 406.00

Whithorn - 43 Workshops, 96 fields
43 @ 3.00 = 129.00
96 @ 2.00 = 192.00

Total Tax = 321.00

Wigtown - 68 Workshops, 136 fields
68 @ 3.00 = 204.00
136 @ 2.00 = 272.00

Total Tax = 476.00

Total County Tax = 1,494.00 (did not include Dumfries since they get tax breaks)

So if we were to go ahead with paying people 50.00 to switch fields. We'd get 1,494.00 in taxes and pay out 1,150.00. So . . .

1,494.00 - 1,150.00 = 344.00

Now, that's if we did this all within the first tax period. We can phase it out over the whole term, say 10 every 15 days. Some might even switch out of their own free will.

Ya, I switched prematurely yesterday then came here and smacked myself.

Someone come up with Sheep anti-drop meds..... Damn those suckers die off easy.